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2 Young Pastors
2 Young Pastors explores the intersectionality between lifestyle and Christian spirituality. Elijah and Jajuan are literally 2 young pastors who are actively pastoring in the Washington DC area. They open up about the ups and downs of pastoral life. Each will bring their experience, jokes, questions, and ideals into discussions on topics ranging from romance and family to theology, race, politics, and personhood.
2 Young Pastors
Are Churches "Stuck"?
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Is it faithfulness to tradition, or fear of change? And how can the church grow without losing its identity? Tune in for honest conversation, real questions, and a little pastoral side-eye.
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Everybody, what is up, everybody? It's been a minute, it's been a minute, and I I say that because yes, um, it's been a couple of months uh since we actually recorded. Um and so, you know, of course, just gotta get a couple things out the way. Elijah, happy belated birthday. Oh yeah. Like, how how does it feel to finally be in the 30s club? How does it feel to be in the 30s club?
SPEAKER_02Man, listen, I was uh I was not looking forward to it, and then I was like, you know what? Screw it, I'm 30. Like, let's do it, you know. Uh so it's been fun, man. Um, just nothing's really changed outside of the fact that um I have to think of myself as an adult. Like, I'm not I'm not a younger person anymore, you know. Um, so yeah, man, it's been good. It's been good. God's been doing a lot of good stuff in these last couple weeks. So I can't wait to share some of that with the with the podcast once it's done. But man, God's been really good. I'm looking forward to it. Just came back from a bachelor party for one of my close friends, Jonathan. He's getting married in October, man. So it's been a good few months, bro. Good, good few months. How about you, bro?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. Um, I I haven't had a birthday, but um, you know, have gotten more so into a flow since uh the wedding, of course. And um, as we are indeed just a couple of weeks away from summer officially being here, um, I I couldn't help but really think through some of the challenges that I was facing um at my church, right? Um, or my churches, my churches, because I have two. Um, I I think that uh of course, you know, my background as you can see is is different.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say, you want to explain a little bit?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. You know, uh it's camp pitch season, and you know, uh, I just have to say, uh, with you not being here for the first time, right? Like everyone's just like, man, Elijah, he traded us, he traded on us, he would trade us, he would trade us, he betrayed us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, because the team is like slightly smaller, it's slightly smaller. Um, because things haven't happened. But camp pitch season of Allegheny East, right? You know, we indeed are getting ready for camp meeting, camp meeting. Um, and so, you know, today we were staking, we were staking. You were staking today? We were staking today. Uh and for those of you who don't know what staking means, um, we actually have to hammer, we have to hammer um poles into the ground so that we can create barriers. All right. We have uh rope that we tie into that we tie together and we create barriers so that cars uh are not able to park just anywhere. Because you know, sometimes people can mess their cars up, and other times people will just have their cars parked wherever they want. Like first people, we could be trifling sometimes, we could be trifling sometimes. And so, like, if we can, if we can, if we give individuals an inch, like they'll try to park any and everywhere that they're not supposed to be and be hazards, okay? Yeah, and so we were thinking today. Um, and so that's why, you know, if you see in the back, yes, uh, this is where we typically eat. But um, you know, as I was up here, Elijah, you know, having conversation, you know, typically whenever pastors get together, yeah, we talk about personal life, but we also talk about, hey, how are things going with within our churches, right? Uh, and so um this is the first time I'm up here as a senior pastor. All the years prior, since 2021, I I've I was an assistant, then finally an associate pastor last year. And so now um this grind hits a little bit differently in that I am a uh a senior pastor, a lead pastor, right? And so um one of the things that's been on my heart and mind is church growth. And Elijah, let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. Um it is currently, and I hope I don't get flagged for this. It is currently my opinion that at least within the American Seventh Adventist Church, um we do not know how to steadily grow our churches. And when I say grow, I mean like numerically, by like as in people.
SPEAKER_02Um as in numbers and tracking numbers and yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, and you know, for me, I don't I don't know what it is, but when I look at the New Testament and when I see uh the apostle, like the accounts of the apostles where it seems as though that they were sharing the gospel and individuals were being one to Christ, like I I get confused because I'm like, man, what is it? Is it that Satan has gotten accustomed to to God's tactics and now he has he has better uh methods to to qualm uh the or qualm qualm the the the strategies for kingdom building? Is is that it? Or or is it that you know we don't have a good system when it comes to adding and increasing the amount of people who who we're adding to the kingdom?
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um here's what I want to say. Here's what I want to say. I I I I think I recognize that as Adventists, um, we do a great job of taking care of our people, right? I think that we we disciple so well, okay. I believe that when I think of um denominations that disciple very well, I I think we have to be in the top top five, if not top three, in terms of denominations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and so we have so many things for people who are already a part of us, right? Um, however, when it comes to people who are not yet a part of us, and forget, forget um other denominations, right? Uh, because I recognize, and you know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but my brand of Adventism growing up was let's convert our job as Adventists is to is to convert non-Adventists into Adventism. That that was the flavor of Adventism that I grew up in, where my job was to show Methodists, Pentecostals, uh Kojic, other Christians. Yes. I like your version of Christianity. Okay. Um I obviously, based on how I describe that, you know, I I think that's faulty thinking, right? But let's not even consider them, right? Let's consider how do we actually reach unbelievers, individuals who are either not sure about God or just God was not on their radar at all. And how do we get them into our spaces? I do not think that we do a very good job of appealing to that aspect of our mission as much as we appeal to making sure that the people who are already believers are growing and and and our understanding of what the Bible is saying. Yeah, I think that's kind of sort of like where I am.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I feel I feel like that's a first of all, that's a very camp meeting uh or camp pitch uh conversation.
SPEAKER_00Like that's like a yes, you're right, you're right, you're right.
SPEAKER_02Like talking while you're eating, you know, talking while you're working, like that's a very like camp pitch conversation.
SPEAKER_00Um did did y'all settle on anything or was just an open conversation with like no I mean naturally, you know that um most of our most of our conversations uh it end open-endedly. Um and there's not really a pinning things down. Um but it it it was one of those conversations that didn't necessarily have an end point just yet. Uh and I and I think it's it's possibly because of the fact that it's something that many of us are possibly experiencing at our own churches, um, and we don't necessarily know what to do about it yet. And so it could be uncomfortable for pastors to really talk about. Um, because the truth is, is that yeah, I and maybe I'm being too hard. Maybe I'm being too hard. And so if I'm being too hard, Elijah, please let me know. Um, let me know. I'll try, I'll try. But it I like I think that this is something that a number of pastors are kind of sort of dealing with when it comes to not really experiencing church growth. And so, you know, what are your what are your thoughts on this topic? Uh, do you think that do you think that churches, do you think that, you know, let's say not just beyond, that's not just Adventism. Do you think, you know, the Christian church in general, uh, from your from your limited knowledge, do you think that we have a church growth problem?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think it depends on what demographic, right? Like if you look at the numbers, uh if looking at the church in like South America, right, and the church in Asia, right? Like it's growing exponentially. The church in China is growing exponentially, right? Um, but the church in Western countries, so Australia, right? Like Australia, America, right, Canada, um, Europe in general, like it's it's I think it's slowly declining, but it's not a rapid decline, right? Um, and I think one of the things that we were talking about was that it's not like um, we don't want like parents have two children, all they're doing is replacing themselves in the population, right? Um what what church growth is, is parents having three children or four children, so that it's not just a replacement, but it's adding to the number of the population, right? Like church growth isn't uh isn't supposed to be a leveling game. And I think we do have a we do have a a Western church problem. I don't know if if it's a general church growth problem. Does that make sense? Like I think it's localized, it's it's it's regionalized um rather than global because the church is growing it in in other places numerically, whether it's Adventism or some other ver some other denomination of Christianity, it is growing. Yeah, but I think the church in in America, um Capital C church, yeah, it's it it's struggling to grow. I think they're maintaining it right now. Hmm.
SPEAKER_00Well said, well said. Well um, you know, and and I'm interested now, uh, because I mean this is limited, right? So just just for anyone listening, if anyone listening, like we didn't read and research this, just this is kind of sort of like just barbershop talk, just barbershop talk.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So if there's a person, if there's a person, you know, in in the comments that's that's ready to be like, well, actually, the number um you know here here I I I want to ask, what do you think, what do you think is like what do you think is a central part of the problem that many of us are facing?
SPEAKER_02I think it's open-mindedness. Open-mindedness, yeah, yeah. Like, so here's so this might be a little pushy, right? Um in my current in my current context, right? In my current context, I've had to learn to rethink some things. Okay. And when I was talking to a guest that was there at church, right, I was like, she was like, oh, this is like so so uh I'm trying to find someone to hold. I don't have anything to hold. Uh she she went to uh it's very it's very interesting. She went to Brinklow. Like her her membership is at Brinklo, and she came by to New Hope just to kind of see the church and stuff. You know, I've heard a lot, I would love to stop by. So I came by. And the way I met her is there's like benches outside of our coffee house, uh shop place. Um, it's all free. And in between before first service and after first service, it's open for people to come in and grab drinks, whatever. And she's outside of it on a bench talking to a young adult that I know, and I said hi to him, and I said hi to her. And she's sitting with her purse clutched like this, right? Um like what? Like exactly. And I could and I read the body language, and I was like, she's uncomfortable, right? But she's talking very normal, but her body language is I don't trust this place. I don't know what's going on here, whatever. And I started like, hey, how are you? You know, uh oh, my name is Elijah. Just want to say hi. I'm a pastor here, just wanted to make sure that I said hi to you. And she's like, Yeah, hi, ha ha hi. Yeah, you know, it's my first time here. You know, it's just it's just so different from what I know. And I was like, Oh, god, so where's home? And she said, Oh, I went to Brinkland. I was like, Oh, Doc Harris. I was like, tell him I said hi. You know, like he's a mentor of mine. And then uh, you know, I explained a little bit of my uh of my background and everything else, and she's like, Oh, gotcha, gotcha. She's like, This is very different, right? And I was like, I was like, Yeah, it's different. But I said, But as you can tell, like uh people f called this home because of because it's meeting with them, them where they are, and she was like, Okay, you know, and the whole time she's still clutching her purse like this.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow. And then um like did you did you did you ever did you probe and ask, well, what's different?
SPEAKER_02I did. Um like first of all, the coffee stuff. Like she's just like I don't know. Coffee and then they're giving it away, but it it because it's set up in a way where you have to put your order in, right? But you aren't paying for it.
SPEAKER_00So you gotta you gotta explain to like the people who don't know, because like, you know, like what people some some people are still possibly getting introduced to New Hope since that's that's your new assignment. So, like, you know, you said coffee, you know, if you're non non-denominational, I think that's kind of sort of like a staple at like many non-denominational churches where like they got coffee for you, things like that. You know, uh Adventism, a part of our health message, we we discourage caffeine, like we discourage caffeine, and so you know, uh New Hope. Interestingly, um, we have a we have a coffee bar.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's more of a coffee shop, right? What that has no buying and stuff, it's just free coffee, free milkshakes, free tea. In the summer, there's cold lemonade.
SPEAKER_01Okay, right?
SPEAKER_02Um, so you come in, it looks like a normal coffee shop where you come in and you put your order, right? And they make it for you, and they call your name out, you know, and you get a little order, right? And it's in a separate area of the church uh down a hallway, but it's before first service and after first service, and then we have a second service, right? So you there's a chance for first-time guests to come in, get your get your little order, you know, have a little cup, you know, walk around, talk, go into worship, whatever, da-da-da. And it's cool. But what I walked away from that conversation with this lady, who was great by the way, very kind, whatever, but her body language gave her away that she was uncomfortable. Like, she's like, you know, like the music is different, and um, because it's very it's very production-y, right? They have lights, there's a fog machine, right?
SPEAKER_00There's uh oh, that's what you said by is different. I thought you were like oh, sound and worship. I thought you were gonna say, like, you know, possibly CCM or so like that too.
SPEAKER_02That's too. That too. It's it's it was uh, this is like not what I'm used to because break laws more gospel, right? Um, so she's like, you know what, and then also the preaching is different, right? So I know how Doc Harris preaches, right? Very different from my currently pastor. And it's not that it's uh it's a bad difference, it's uh the audience is different. Yes, right? Like the the the target audience is different, and I think that's what I had to tell her, and I was like, hey, you know, I understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I said, um, I said you'll notice that there are a lot of people here that are not traditional Adventists, and there are a lot of people here that come here to explore their relationship with church because they feel more comfortable here than they do at any other space. And then I said, I said, I said our target audience is different from Brinklow's target audience.
SPEAKER_00Um hearing you say that brings up a couple of things for me. Yeah. First and foremost, it makes me question one, are our churches that we have that have obviously been around for a long time? Because Brinklow churches been around for a long time, right? I don't know how long New Hope has been around because I I don't know anything about Chesapeake Conference, right? But a number of our churches, especially let's say in the DC metro area, um like long time standing churches, right? They're not new. Um, are they too churchy for the culture that we have now in America? Are they possibly too churchy?
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, okay because because here's the thing, right? And again, this is me learning as um as is happening to me, so I don't have all the answers, but this is where I am right now. Uh is if I've also had people come into New Hope and go, This is not for me. Okay, right? Like they're they're Christian, they look, they're like, This is not for me. Because they're like, hey, I need someone that um that goes deeper into the word, right? Uh uh, I I need music that is more of this and not that, right? And then and then they and then I I tell them, hey, if this is not for you, please go find another church. What matters most is having a relationship with God and having a community that's spiritual, right? Okay, so it's not like once you make these changes, you'll attract everybody. You're always gonna leave somebody out because someone is always not gonna like like it's always gonna be around 80%, right? This is just like a random number. Like, like if you do everything well, you'll still have five percent of people that say they they they don't like it, right? Um uh last thing I'll say is this there's can we can we pause real quick though before you get to the last thing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah is that my internet so the question is this, right? Um I just want to make sure I understand I I I understood like your your your your point. You were you were saying that part of our part of our problem, uh if we recognize we have a problem, is that um we're not open enough. Is that is that is that what you said? So so when when you say we're not I know you gave the example of the young lady visiting the church and you know her her you know body language kind of sort of given the fact giving it away that she was uncomfortable. Um but when you say you know we aren't open enough, are you saying that she wasn't open enough to I guess the different experience that she could possibly obtain at New Hope? Or are you saying that you know let's say New Hope um wasn't open to to uh an individual who has her type of background?
SPEAKER_02Uh it it was the individual, right, that was not open enough to realize that every church doesn't have to look the same.
SPEAKER_00Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, thank you.
SPEAKER_02Okay, not every congregation has to look the same, and in Adventism, Grace Church, Grace Adventist Church in Orlando looks the same and feels the same as North Point Church in Seattle, right? Like it's what are these churches? What are what are what are these random churches, right? Um it's the fact that it's the same thing, right? It's this it's like going to a McDonald's, right? That varies just a little bit from here to one that's out in New York. There's there's like this idea of of of it it there's consistency in the branding of Adventism, right? Yes, that if you go to one Adventist church, it should be like you went to another Adventist church, right?
SPEAKER_00It's it's interesting though. It's interesting that you say that. Uh, because I think that's there's a good thing. Uh like there's it that it's a it's good that you can have a a certain level of expectation no matter what church you go to, but I also think of like, let's say like ethnic churches, right? Because I mean, you you grew up uh as a member at TASDAC, right? And you know, very fancy way of saying the Indian Tim they've been a church, right? Yeah. Um at your church, do you think that do you think your culture was allowed to be free, or do you think that it whoa
SPEAKER_02It was like you went to a normal Eurocentric church. Right? It looked like you went to a normal American church, except some things were in a different language. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So so hear me out. Hear me out. Um, and I'm and I'm saying this as a critique. Um, and I think we should be able to critique spaces that we're in, because no space is perfect. I think that one of the limitations of the Adventist Church, um, as a person who pastors and has been a member my entire, I think that it does not promote uh the unique cultures that make it up. Um, you know, and we're a global church, and to a certain extent, we do not we do not allow individuals cultures to really shine through. If anything, what I've noticed is that our cultures kind of sort of get suffocated by um the GC's definition of how a church is supposed to conduct themselves.
SPEAKER_02Which is the global body, right? Um the global executive body, right? I'm afraid.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And and and and and so I don't I don't know if if that that if you are afraid of an individual an individual critiquing, you know, our our church. I'm sorry, this it's not the space for you, but you know, uh I I I think as an individual who one loves being Adventist, right? I love it. Um, but I'm also objective enough, self-aware enough to understand, you know, where we fall short, right? I I can I can clearly see where you know we we have some some areas of growth. And I to be told, I don't even know if this is an area where we can grow. Um we can.
SPEAKER_02We can.
SPEAKER_00Please.
SPEAKER_02I have optimism in it, right? Because New Hope has done it. Like it takes a lot of effort, it takes a lot of trimming, right? Like, if you've ever had a plant, right? Like there are some plants that need to be trimmed in order to thrive, right? Like they grow too fast and they never have flowers unless you trim their branches, right? Yes, I feel like in some way that's a church, yes. Like some churches need to be trimmed in terms of people and or in terms of the whole church, right? In order for a flower to grow somewhere else. Yes. Or in the place that they're at. And that's a really hard thing to say, but you see that example in the New Testament, right? Where Paul is where Paul is saying, hey, there are some people that don't need to be invited back into community, right? Um, and in the same way for our church, we just kind of have an open mind of saying, hey, we've done things a certain way for this long, it's worked, right? It's the like I like I'll never be the person that say we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? We have done some things that work, right? But and the things that are not hard found in scripture, it's be flexible, right? Like let's have let's have um like let's change the time for Sabbath school, right? Or let's change the time when Sunday school happens. If you go to Sunday school, right? Like, let's change the time that happens because people's schedule looks different now, right? Some people wake up early in the morning and they don't want to wake up early in the morning again on either Saturday or Sunday, right? Let's figure out a time where we can have that and then let's mess around with the budget so that we can have food after church, right? Like, let's not do potlucks anymore. Let's change the budget around, let's let us prioritize this and not that. Like, there are so that's what I mean by openness is like, hey, your kids aren't gonna have in a school anymore, or your kids aren't gonna Christian school anymore, and you have a you have a fully funded Christian education account. Let's get the church together and have a vote and use those funds, right, in a different way, because our community no longer needs it to be addressed in that way. So let's just you know be open-minded. So that's what I mean is um if our churches, man, are only attracting other Adventists, then that's a problem because that's not what the church goal is, right? Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But you know, I I think this is where I'm kind of sort of like I'm stumped because I don't really know because I I believe that there are individuals who are looking for churches, right? I I I do believe that and individuals want God and they want spiritual community. Um I I I'm wondering if if the fact that we worship on Saturday, and this is not me saying that, you know, we shouldn't. Um I want I'm wondering if the fact that we worship on Saturday and only on Saturday um is is a double-edged sword, right? Because one, it's a it's a positive that we get to show people, like, hey, you know, yeah, we we we we still live out um the the the blessing, the blessing of the Sabbath. You know, we believe that God gave us a day where we don't have to work, right? God said, remember the Sabbath day too, keep it holy. And keeping it holy means not working. It's that simple, you know, like who would have thought that God would call something holy because you're you're not working, right? Um, and so it's a blessing. Uh so we get to show people, hey, there's this, there's this very amazing gift that God gave us in the Sabbath. Uh, but at the same time, because like the world has kind of sort of um established Sunday as being the go-to day for for church, right? Um individuals don't necessarily look at us and and say, oh man, let me let me check this church out. Let me check this church out.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, sorry.
SPEAKER_00No, no, go ahead, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Anecdotally, I have had some people that that have done that, and they've chosen to come to to to Avan Church on Saturday to check it out. I don't know what the general numbers on that are, but anecdotally in my life, I have had people that were like, well, you know, I go to church on Saturday, but no, sorry, I go to church on Sunday, but I decided to stop by here because y'all go to church on Saturday and I just want to see what it was like. Um, am I saying it's like 30 people? No, I'm saying it was like maybe like five people, right?
SPEAKER_00Uh in five years of ministry. Certainly. And you know, this, you know, I I I I once again I could feel that, well, actually, people, you know, wait waiting to get up and say something. Once again, this this is this is acknowledging the double-edged sword, right? When individuals are going to look for a church, they're most likely going to look for a Sunday church, a Sunday church.
SPEAKER_02That is that is one step away on either direction of where they're already at, right? Like, like they don't want to take 10 steps to the left or test for the right, they'd rather take that two steps to the left or the right and explore because it's safer, right? Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm with you on that one.
SPEAKER_00Here's something that I'll here's something that I'll say. I think that um, let's say young adults, right? I think that young adults are so interesting um in ways that young adults weren't interesting back then. Not, you know, and what I mean by that is the young adults back then they were interesting in their own way, in a different way. Now uh we we we operate differently than young adults did uh 20, 30, 40 years ago, right? Yeah. Uh when I say young adults, what I really mean is post-college, um before 40, before 40, right? Um I think that one of the things that I think really reaches young adults today is um production. Um I I I I think it I I think it reaches young adults in a way that it possibly didn't reach individuals um in the past. Um and here's what I'll say there are some individuals who are churched, who who've been who who are quote unquote pew babies who would disagree, but you disagree because you grew up in the church, right? You know, if you possibly are not a pew baby, if you did not grow up in the church, you know, when you look at when you see production, you're like, oh, this seems like very professional. And you want a space that that is professional. And I say this because I'm I'm currently in two churches that are that are stark differences from my first assignment at Metro. You know, at Metro had different praise teams each week. You know, we had a rotation of uh praise team leaders who led uh at least six at least six background vocals weekly. And now, you know, they've expanded to the point, Elijah, where they have nine background vocal singing behind and now I say this because in my two atomics that I have now, um, by the grace of God, at one of my churches, I have sisters, two sisters who faithfully sing week in and week out, right? In addition, at my other church, I have like a family. I have a family who faithfully lead. However, it's it's it's not it's not a bunch of different people. It's limited and you know, the quality, the quality is is is different as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Naturally, smaller, that that's what happens at more intimate-sized churches than your larger churches. Now, I say this because uh, in my opinion, what impresses what impresses young adults is high quality stuff. It's it's professionalism. It's the reason why a bunch of people like going to larger churches. It's it's because it makes you feel good. One, uh to belong to something that that seems like it's winning and that's going well. And then it also like just peaks that side of us that that makes us think, man, I can take them seriously because it looks like they take themselves seriously as well. Does that make sense? That makes sense.
SPEAKER_02It does. It does. The professionism makes sense, and like something popped in my mind. That's that is the double-edged sword, by the way. Yes. Because I think, well, I know of the individuals that go to churches with that mindset more often are consumer mindset. Like they have like a consumer mindset, right? And I think I think that's the problem. Like it um it does take sacrifice to be in community, right? Like, it takes so much sacrifice to say, man, you know what? I am not gonna stay in today. I'm gonna go to church. Like that is sacrifice. Um, I'm actually not gonna go go uh and have lunch with this person or that person decided. I'm gonna go to my church lunch, right? That is sacrifice, yeah. And I think the church can do its best to lower the barriers, right? But at one point, you have to there has to be um not people have to make a sacrifice, but at one point or or another, individuals are going to be required to make a sacrifice in order to make prior in order to make church a priority, right? Like I think right now church, church is just one of the things on the list, but it's not even top three, right? Um, so in that in that world, right, churches can only do so much without lowering our standards, right? And I don't want to lower, like for me, I'd rather have five people in my pews that are day in and day out, right? Then uh because I am dealing with this mindset right now at Nehope, which is a consumer mindset of I'm gonna come here for this and this and that, but I'm not gonna put anything back in. Uh, and for me, it's hey, um, we're gonna do our best. We're gonna have these things available. If there are no individuals interested in helping, we're gonna lower the things that we do because yeah, I'm not gonna burn out the five people I do have. Um, and once we get more people and you're buy-in, we'll start adding more things onto the schedule. But as of right now, right? Like this is this is what we can do. I love your ideas, but I need you, right? Like I've like, like I've had multiple lunches at this point where I've told people they're like, Well, we need this, we need that, we need that. I was like, Can you be there? Well, actually, I have lunch on that Saturday, I can't be there. Well, you know, actually I'm traveling that Saturday, I can't be there. And then and then I was like, Well, once you're back and you're ready, I would love to get back to the conversation, right? And they go, Yeah, you're right. You know, I just can't give you ideas and not follow up and do them, do them.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, that means you're not serious. That's that's that's pretty much what you're telling me. You're not serious, yeah. You know, um, and okay, and so you know that that to your point, I I think here's a here's the reality. I think that whether you're in a large church or a small church, you you have individuals who have become consumers. Um, I don't remember when I don't know when it happened, but I think church at a certain point in time, probably some somewhere between the 70s and the 90s, it became a space where individuals kind of sort of just started going uh out of obligation versus conviction. Um, you know, and what I mean by that is listen, I think when it comes to belonging to a church, this is my personal belief. When it comes to belonging to a church, um attending a worship service, whether you go to church on Sunday or Saturday, Friday, whatever it is, right? That is kind of sort of like barrier level one, like the lowest level, where you're starting to just attend, right? And I think here's the reality: there are several people just attending. Um, I actually had a pastor, um, I can't even take credit for this term, uh, Isaiah Long, he he said this. He said that there are several individuals who are full-time visitors. All they're don't like, like they're they're there pretty much every single week, right? Or whatever every single week looks like in 2026, because we know everyone doesn't go to church um every single week faithfully anymore. Most people, most people miss one to two weeks a month, right? Not most, or there's a growing number of individuals who are missing one to two weeks in a month, right? Um, and the reality is is a lot a number of individuals are full-time visitors. They may even give financially speaking, but they're not really contributing, you know, like their time and their gifting. There are some individuals we don't even know what they're gifted in because the only thing they do is just come to church.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They drop the kids off at Sabbath school, you know? And and so I I I think a part of what my answer to my own question is what's a problem that we're having. I I think in addition to saying, yeah, you know, uh, we could improve a professionalism. I think that we need to remember why the church was created in the first place.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Not not just the building, not just the building, not just the worship service, right? Like, because that's that's it's okay to call a church that. It's okay to refer to your church and your worship service as church. But we have to remember why the people, the group, the group itself, why it was formed by Jesus before He He went back to heaven. Um, and I think that to a certain extent, I think we we've forgotten, we've forgotten, you know, the the great commission, go ye therefore, uh, and and and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them all things that I have I have taught you. I think we've forgotten it. I think we've forgotten it. And I don't know, I don't know how if we can like establish churches where we really get members to see, hey, this is priority numero uno. Priority number one is not for you to come to a worship service each week. Like that's not it. Priority number one is not for you to get a word each week to to encourage you. No, you you don't need a pastor to encourage you like that. Like, if you're really spending time with God throughout the week and reading your word, like or picking up a book, you know, like you, you, you can get encouragement on your own. You can get encouragement. And and if you actually are interacting with church members throughout the week, you you can pour into them and they can pour into that's the encouragement. And and so I just these are these are these are some of the things that that are that are going through my mind and I feel enrapted on. And so I'll still stop.
SPEAKER_02No, no, uh because the those are the those are things that I think most most um churches have had ideas like that or thoughts like that of like, hey, we're supposed to be growing, right? And why why aren't we growing? And I think most of the time we fall too short, like that list of why aren't we why aren't we growing is surface level. Yes, right? It's just oh well, we didn't have the lights, we don't have the production, we didn't have this, we didn't have that. Uh Dr. Peeler called them bells and whistles, right?
SPEAKER_00They are bells and whistles, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's just like no, it's not the lights, it's not the fog machine, right? It's not it can be the sound sometimes, right? But like it might not be that, it might just be that it's not your the church isn't warm, right? Um, no one says hi to guests when they come in, right? Like it it could be deeper seated things that are in the DNA of that local church that need to be addressed and then changed, right? Um uh so in my mind it's hey, you know what? Let's let's have a real honest conversation and say, hey, these are some things that are happening, and what what I've seen happen, like I told this to the young adults at the leadership at New Hope that are young adults. I told them a very hard truth.
SPEAKER_00I was like, hey, this is this is the real truth, and I got immediate pushback and um, you know, like a emotional pastor coming in and not a new pastor coming in and keeping it real. Mercy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I got a very emotional response to it, right? And then I I I was like very cut and dry, and I was like, Y'all are leaders. I was like, if I can't have this conversation with y'all, like we can't talk about anything. Um, and then uh like just like a like I was like, hey, like this is this is a matter of fact. It was hard for me to get there. I needed coaching from Mike, who's a lead pastor, right? I was like, hey Mike, is it okay if I say this? He's like, Yeah, sure. He's like, Yeah, like don't say it any other way. Where it's uh it's a it's it's placating, right? Because it's not no, it's just like if it's not you, it's gonna be somebody else, right? Um, so let's go ahead and fix this right now. Uh and the place where I've gotten is if you can't have that honest conversation, not some not just you Juan, but like people in general that that are listening, if you can't plainly state what's wrong, and you get that emotional feedback of it's not me, it's you or it's them, right? Then that church doesn't really want to grow. Yeah, like like that church doesn't want to change. And at that point, you have to make up your mind, a, if you're willing to fight the battle, right? Or or B, is that time to pick up, dust off your feet, and go find another community.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well said, well said, well said, well said. And it seems like, you know, to be honest, this conversation that's gonna have to uh contain a that we're gonna have to process through. Because no matter what, like I I I love serving the Lord, right? I love it, yeah. And I believe that I am called to be a pastor, and I I also recognize that like at times pastoring pastoring can get discouraging in ways that other jobs does do not get discouraging. No, um, and I think one of the ways that pastoring gets discouraging is not seeing it all click together and the way that the Bible at times um shows it to click. Um but I I think that this is something where I I I think we have to continue talking about it because um one, the the word is true. And and I believe that there there is a harvest. There is a harvest. Um, and that churches can produce harvests, uh, even even in the time such as this. And so listen, um, we're we're gonna end the episode here, especially because you know we we got meetings to get to as pastors. Um and so listen, uh, thank you so much for joining us uh for this episode. And please make sure that you like, share, subscribe to uh our our podcast, our podcast. Um we indeed will truly be launching the new the new name uh very very very soon. Yeah so um be on the lookout for it and uh be blessed. Uh do you have anything else that you want to share with the people before we go?
SPEAKER_02No, y'all. Uh we we're looking forward to the next chapter of this uh podcast. And sorry that this episode took so long to get to get out. Uh we're looking to be more consistent in the future. But all right, y'all. We'll catch the next one. Peace.
